[Needtoknow] [Ufpj-legislative] [Ufpj-disc] It may be timetoorganizeanObamaprotest for hisstands on the war.
John Walsh
jvwalshmd at gmail.com
Mon Apr 7 19:57:52 EDT 2008
Thanks Jon Paul.
It is oh so simple - Obama-HRC-McCain are all prowar candidates. How can
someone be antiwar and vote for them?
This is what has worried Phyllis Bennis, employee of the Dem party. She has
wondered how we poor ignorant slobs could be convinced to vote for a prowar
candidate, something that we could not "intuitively" understand. You
betcha.
On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 7:52 PM, Jon Paul McClellan <jmcclellan at nc.rr.com>
wrote:
> I do not believe that HC or BO will be better for the people of Iraq.
> There is just no evidence that they will. They answered directly months
> ago that they will not get us out of Iraq. We will continue to kill
> innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan and will have our surrogates kill
> innocent people in Palestine. I think JW is closest to the truth here.
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* ufpj-legislative-bounces+jmcclellan=nc.rr.com at lists.mayfirst.org[mailto:
> ufpj-legislative-bounces+jmcclellan<ufpj-legislative-bounces%2Bjmcclellan>
> =nc.rr.com at lists.mayfirst.org] *On Behalf Of *John Walsh
> *Sent:* Monday, April 07, 2008 7:23 PM
> *To:* paulkrehbiel at earthlink.net
> *Cc:* UFPJ- Discussion; UFJP Legislative lists;
> VotersForPeace at yahoogroups.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Ufpj-legislative] [Ufpj-disc] It may be
> timetoorganizeanObamaprotest for hisstands on the war.
>
> Still incomprehensible to me. If you work for a prowar candidate who has
> voted hundreds of billions in his Senate career (I am talking about Obama
> here -although I could as well be talking about McCain or HRC), then you are
> prowar. In fact you are complicit in killing a million Iraqis.
> No amount of double talk can escape that hard,cold fact.
> Shame on you - you should vote for Nader/Gonzalez instead of the mass
> murderers.
> Shame, shame, shame. What hypocrisy.
> john walsh
>
> On Mon, Apr 7, 2008 at 6:31 PM, Paul Krehbiel <paulkrehbiel at earthlink.net>
> wrote:
>
> > I agree with everything Carl Davidson said; except I never joined the
> > Green
> > party. The reality is that either the Republican nominee, McCane, or
> > the
> > Democratic nominee, either Clinton or Obama, will be elected president.
> > No
> > one else will be elected president and we all know it. McCane will do
> > much
> > more damage to the people of the Middle East and here at home than
> > either
> > Democratic nominee. I don't like Clinton's or Obama's position on the
> > war,
> > but we have a better chance of influencing either of them than McCain.
> > We're playing games with people's lives if we fail to recognize this.
> >
> > Paul Krehbiel
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: les evenchick <piratefish at yahoo.com>
> > > To: <carld717 at aol.com>; John Walsh <jvwalshmd at gmail.com>
> > > Cc: Kevin Zeese <kzeese at earthlink.net>; UFPJ- Discussion
> > <ufpj-disc at lists.mayfirst.org>; UFJP Legislative lists
> > <ufpj-legislative at lists.mayfirst.org>; <VotersForPeace at yahoogroups.com>;
> > David Gibson <peacehome at earthlink.net>; Tracy Turner
> > <tracymarkturner at yahoo.com>
> > > Date: 4/6/2008 5:41:15 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [Ufpj-disc] [Ufpj-legislative] It may be time
> > toorganizeanObamaprotest for hisstands on the war.
> > >
> > > **Please see footer for list protocol**
> > >
> > > Carl,
> > >
> > > There is a significnat difference between trying to
> > > mobilise pressure to force a withdrawal from Iraq from
> > > whatever faction of the capitalist class has the power
> > > to order such withdrawal and supporting one faction of
> > > the capitalist class gainst another hoping you picked
> > > the right faction.
> > >
> > > And in addition you can't build a loner term
> > > alternative to any capitalist faction by supporting
> > > one of them. As someone else pointed out , that
> > > startegy hasn't worked to date and its been tried a
> > > long time.
> > >
> > > There is a difference in strategy not simply tactics,
> > > short of replacing the current system.
> > >
> > > Concening the IPS. Its not simply about contracts with
> > > the govt which i only used to illustrate the conection
> > > but that the connection of IPS with the Democratic
> > > Party has been a long time affair.
> > >
> > > I remember when I was first looking into the IPS
> > > because Cathy Wilkerson had recommended its seminars
> > > to me back around 1967.
> > >
> > > I was surprised to see in its own annual report a
> > > contract from the then emocratic controlled Congress
> > > to a budjet analyse and also i remeber funding from
> > > the Ford Foundation.
> > >
> > > The IPS is not just another 501c that happens to have
> > > an occasional Govt. contract.
> > >
> > > And it is no coincidence that the policy documents
> > > proposed to the UFPJ by the IPS rep avoid any mention
> > > of independent political action.
> > >
> > > And concerning the Green party US. Its primary
> > > organizational line has been building a party that
> > > discontented democrats would feel comfortable joining
> > > once they became disgusted with democratic party
> > > politics.
> > >
> > > Its not anarchist or ultraleftist at all. In my view
> > > much to acccomodating to the Democratic party and the
> > > PDA in particular.
> > >
> > > Les
> > >
> > > Les Evenchick
> > > New orleans
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Carl Davidson <carld717 at aol.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > If my position of taking advantage of one faction of
> > > > imperialists against
> > > > another to end this war is wrong, then your
> > > > alternative, whatever the
> > > > tactic, is that imperialism, or at least the
> > > > two-party setup, must be
> > > > supplanted in order to bring this war to an end.
> > > >
> > > > If this is what you think, make your case.
> > > >
> > > > If you don't think imperialism has to been
> > > > overthrown, or the two parties
> > > > both removed from the White House to end this war,
> > > > then we're only quibbling
> > > > over secondary tactics, and, like me, you're relying
> > > > on the masses, to move
> > > > one faction of imperialism against the other to end
> > > > the war, the same as I
> > > > am, whether you want to admit it or not.
> > > >
> > > > Your argument against Bennis applies to any worker
> > > > for a 501C3 or C4 that
> > > > has a contract with a government agency for
> > > > services, since government
> > > > usually involves the two parties in one form or
> > > > another. I've been paid with
> > > > grants from government, pushed by Democrats and
> > > > Republicans, to train
> > > > ex-offenders in IT job skills, and another one,
> > > > through the Labor Dept, to
> > > > research joblessness, and still another, to train
> > > > public school teachers to
> > > > teach IT skills. I push the findings of my work on
> > > > any candidate willing to
> > > > take up the cause I'm focused on. But to claim this
> > > > means I have a 'vested
> > > > interest' in the Democrats or Republicans continued
> > > > domination of government
> > > > is at once silly and slanderous, although it will
> > > > likely hurt you more than
> > > > anyone, and certainly the Greens, if they share it.
> > > > Many of them,
> > > > ironically, may find themselves in the same
> > > > situation as to the source of
> > > > their paycheck, truth be told.
> > > >
> > > > I joined the Greens in Chicago. But I told the guy
> > > > that took my membership
> > > > dues that the Greens would be strangled in their
> > > > crib by their own hands
> > > > unless they broke with the semi-anarchist, ultraleft
> > > > line riddled through
> > > > its politics, or lack thereof, depending on how you
> > > > look at it.
> > > >
> > > > Your arguments here have made my case better than I
> > > > could have myself,
> > > > unfortunately.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Keep On Keepin' On!
> > > >
> > > > Carl Davidson
> > > >
> > > > http://carldavidson.blogspot.com
> > > > http://ussen.org
> > > > http://solidarityeconomy.net
> > > > http://progressivesforobama.blogspot.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > Les Evenchick
> > > New Orleans
> > >
> > piratefish at yahoo.com
> > > ***************************************
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