[statecom-discuss] Ashley's Medical Treatment

Tue Jan 30 11:59:46 EST 2007

Adam - actually I have offered lots of different analogies and information - 
exactly because not analogy is perfect.

I think, however, that you exactly missed my point.

My point is that the parents' "options" are circumscribed by bad social 
policy.   Which is actually one the implication of your "hard choices" paragraph.

And, fo course, that saying simply that parents do something "out of love" is 
not a moral measure.

I suspect that part of the disagreement we (everyone engaging in this) is 
whether we primarily identify with the parents or with Ashley.

I have yet to hear anyone attack the parents.

for instance, as activists with a systemic viewpoint, we don't generally 
attack particular parents for carrying out the binding of their children's feet 
when that was the tradition in China, or for genetal mutilation of girl children 
in parts of Africa, or for the binding of young girls with corsets as was 
done in the US so their chest bones warped and sometimes actually broke as they 
grew into adulthood so they would have stylish narrow waists.

We generally recognize these as culturally sexist and oppressive traditions 
and policies not so much that particular parents are "bad".

thanks, Grace
PS - isn't it interesting that so many of these practices are about women, 
about making them sexually acceptable to those who will care for them and 
include pretty serious, invasive physical procedures?
In a message dated 1/30/07 10:23:21 AM, adam_artist at yahoo.com writes:

> "If there were plenty of help and services, and the parents really love 
> Ashley, they would not have done this."
> 
> Grace, I don't see how you can make this remarkably presumptuous assumption 
> ("really love Ashley").  Perhaps, among the many divisions in the world, is 
> that of those who are parents and those who are not.  Parents make these 
> decisions, potentially life-changing, every day in essence if not in degree (e.g., 
> to vaccinate or not, how long to breast feed, whether to undergo medical 
> procedures, what school to go to, whom it's OK to play with and where, how much 
> TV to watch if any, when it's OK for child to walk/bike/travel by 
> her/himself, or drive the car, or eat certain foods) because children arrive at their 
> ability to make decisions at different time, often unpredictably from child to 
> child - and frequently caregivers must make decisions with far-ranging 
> consequences on behalf of a child who may simply and absolutely be incapable of 
> doing so.
> 
> Granted that there is a continuum (a "slippery slope" or a ragged one) along 
> which some people are capable of making decisions, some are allowed to make 
> decisions by those who decide who's allowed to make decisions, some are not 
> allowed to make decisions, and some who simply cannot.  Who falls into which 
> category depends on many factors, including politics, racial and gender bias, 
> medical status, age, social transgressions ("crime"), results on 
> "standardized" tests, wealth, and undoubtedly many others. Frequently the decisions are 
> deplorable, and cast deep shame over our past and present actions.  
> Occasionally the decisions are enlightened.  But such decisions are usually fraught 
> with doubt and error among the most well-intentioned people. 
> 
> We're basing this discussion about Ashley almost entirely on hearsay 
> information, but assuming that her capacity as a three-month-old is correct, her 
> caretakers have very personal and difficult decisions to make, and consequences 
> to live with.  We are in no position to judge whether their decisions benefit 
> Ashley or themselves or her siblings or not.  As parents, they will be 
> caregivers for the rest of their lives, which will be more or less consumed with 
> Ashley's needs. They too are entitled to consideration.
> 
> Where do we draw the line?  Surely there is a difference between sexual 
> abuse of a child and medical intervention with the intention of benefitting 
> affected people.  But the eugenics movement also claimed that sterilizing poor 
> mountain people without their consent was with the intention of various 
> benefits, including "best interests" of their victims.  It is truly a difficult and 
> ongoing discussion, but to claim that there are only absolutes and no lines to 
> be drawn (or that we're the chosen few to draw them) makes no sense to me.
> 
> Adam
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: "gracegrnrnbw at aol.com" <gracegrnrnbw at aol.com>
> To: statecom-discuss at green-rainbow.org
> Sent: Monday, January 29, 2007 10:28:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [statecom-discuss] Ashley's Medical Treatment
> 
> Jeff- some specifics - disabled folks have been sterilized for a long time 
> until pretty recently - you don't see why what was done to Ashley is 
> sterilization? that is specifically what it was and that is a thread through all of 
> these articles.
> 
> the fact that there is a history of discrimination means that those of us 
> who are able-bodied have been generally shut out of the experience of 
> differently abled - and carry an inbred sense of superiority - so us thinking we can 
> making decisions for those we have been taught to experience as different from 
> and less than us is sinply an expression of that same superiority - it means 
> we are not in a position to be objective.
> 
> I included one of the these because it talks not about just the history of 
> but present time oppression - there is no distance to the slippery slope we 
> are already on it and trying to claw our way off of it in the right direction.
> 
> and I am not sure what you mean by contesting? We are not talking about a 
> law suit, we are talking about calling on the larger players to take 
> responsiblity for setting this situation up and letting it happen. If there were plenty 
> of help and services, and the parents really love Ashley, they would not 
> have done this. That means the restructuring of services that would have lead to 
> a different situation is a responsibility that falls on all of us....
> 
> Love, grace
>    
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jturner at alum.rpi.edu
> To: statecom-discuss at green-rainbow.org
> Sent: Mon, 29 Jan 2007 2:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [statecom-discuss] Ashley's Medical Treatment
> 
>   >Merelice- while Martina's voice is important, I encourage anyone who
> wants to
> >back her or present helpful background to do so - here are three
> articles I
> >found informative and I encourage others to read (in no particular
> order):
> >
> >
> >http://www.bazelon.org/issues/disabilityrights/incourt/lane/blanchefisc
> her.htm
> 
> There's a history of discrimination against the disabled, no doubt (off
> hand,
> didn't the euphemism "differently abled" ever take off, even in this
> community?). I don't see how it relates to the particular case of Ashley
> and
> her parents.
> 
> >http://www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/march02hubbard-newman.htm
> 
> Again, what is the relevance? Ashley wasn't aborted, she's wanted by her
> family. She is not going to be euthanized for her disability. On the
> flip side of
> "Yuppie Eugenics" are the recent stories of deaf parents (and little
> people
> parents) choosing to have similar children. But it's still not Ashley's
> situation.
> 
> >http://oracknows.blogspot.com/2005/10/eugenics-and-involuntary-euthanas
> ia.html
> 
> There's a big difference between preferring a child-size three-month-old
> to a
> full-grown adult-size three-month-old and killing someone off. Nobody is
> arguing that Ashley should be killed, and I think the slippery slope is
> a long
> way off.
> 
> I do not like the idea of being involved in contesting the medical
> decisions a
> family makes for a child they seem to genuinely care about.
> 
> --Jeff
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